super 8 sound stock rebirth.

[ekoe]

can you feel the love?
simply cine hopes to have super8 sound stock back in circulation by 2003. this news, compounded by martin baumgarten's efforts, offer new hope to single-system, sound on film super8 filmmakers.
and they thought it'd die quietly.
you can visit simply cine's homepage at the following url: http://www.simplycine.co.uk/
drop them a line so they know what sort of demand they're dealing with.
l8r,
-e.

[Alex]

Even if one wants to record to DAT or some other higher quality format than the stripe on the film....that sound stripe would allow the sync in post of the higher quality audio to be MUCH EASIER.

Check this out.....using a digital time-code slate and laying the time-code onto the FILM-STRIPE!

Syncing film and the high quality audio recording becomes a snap, because both sources come with the same time-code!

And again, the poor mans approach, the film is already synched.

I hope it works out and we have sound striped film again.

Alex

[dogstarman]

That would certainly save us a lot of headaches (literally)...

[Hanthx]

I can't wait! Although...Martin Baumgarten says next year (or maybe at the end of this year) he should be able to sell sound film for super8. How bout that!
By the way...

Did anybody see the movie "Traffic"?
It looks like (and Im probably wrong) that some of footage that was shot in Mexico was done with super8. Anybody know?
SWS

[pcg]

Here's an update on Martin's plan for new sound film. Unfortunately, it isn't encouraging:
--------------------------
Dear Pat Garner,

In a message dated 01-01-07 12:48:49 EST, you write:
<< Just an encouraging note. Rumors continue to abound that you're planning to
have sound film on hand in a short time. If it's true, there are many of us
who would be buying the stock by the dozen.
Go for it!
Pat Garner >>

--->Thanks for writing. Please squelch those rumors! It's not true, there
will not be sound film from me anytime soon; unless I achieve some major
breakthrough, and my time for working on these projects is taken away by
current workloads. Perhaps my dilligence in collecting sound cartridges is
giving some people false hope. I am saving these, in the event that I can or
someone else can produce magnetic sound Super 8mm film......as the cartridges
will then be needed. Without cartridges, it would mean custom manufacturing
them....and that cost would truly be Prohibitive!

---> I am working on being able to manufacture my own sound films in Super
8mm....however...it's a long drawnout process...and the film will be TOO
Expensive for most people (e.g. approx. $59.95 for Kodachrome w/processing
included based on price rates from about two years ago). The costs involved
are so high.....that my own profit on this isn't even worth my doing
this.....that price leaves me with a profit of about $5 per cartridge...and
if you knew what was involved....you'd agree it's not worth doing.
However.....I doubt that anyone would pay $75 per cartridge, and my goal is
to make it as affordable as possible. Just as many other specialized hobbies
can be very expensive....this is one area where slow, tedious hand work
cannot possibly compete with the mass production that Kodak had when they
were making sound film. I will somehow eventually make the film
anyhow...even if I'm the only user of it, since for certain times...it's
worth it to me.

---> I won't work on production until sound film is so scarce that it can't
be found any longer; and can make the time to work on it of course. This is
WHY I recommend that anyone that wants any Super 8mm SOUND film...to buy what
they can find NOW! Regardless of what it costs.....I don't care if they
want $50 for a sound cartridge...IF YOU WANT sound film....pay the price and
you will have it. It will be CHEAPER than anything that could ever come
along manufactured at an agonizingly slow handwork pace. I see late
production sound film on eBay all the time...in the price range of $25 to
$40, and considering that it is not being made....these are bargain prices.
It is best to snatch up the film while you can find it, with these later
expiration dates...than take a chance on some off the internet in a couple
years time when it has gotten even older. Some enthusiasts know that via
freezing you can preserve film almost indefinitely. I know this for a
fact...as I am personally using film with 1982 expiration dates that I have
kept frozen for some 20 years and for all intents and purposes it is like new
film. Place the film into quality ziplock bags, evacuate as much air as
possible, and freeze it if you're not going to use it. You can always sell
unused film later on if need be...since folks will always be wanting it.

Best wishes,
Martin W. Baumgarten

[Alex]

So the wisdom in making and developing your own, (ala Super-8 Sound) is all your Super-8 cartridges come back to you for processing!

This might help explain why you pay for processing up front with each film.....they want their super-8 cartridges back!

In a sense, the up-front developing fee is really a deposit fee for holding onto the cartridge.

Koday used to make a 35mm print stock that was actually super-8mm X 4! The print stock was pre-striped with both a main and balence stripe...and a slitter was used to cut the film in four even "slits" the size of Super-8.

I bet those machines and techniques are out of commission...but where did they end up?

Apparently, any 16mm or 35mm negative stock could be printed four at a time onto this stock.

Any Kodak experts out there?

Alex

[dogstarman]

If:

1- what Martin is saying is accurate, regarding the estimated cost of a 2nd generation cartridge of sound film, and

2- given what Alex is saying about the "deposit" on the empty sound cartridge shells (which I agree with), and

3- Martin really is stockpiling them in the hope that somebody (besides him) can put them to use at a cost less than what it would cost him to produce a big batch of sound cartridges,

Then perhaps it would be possible to persuade him to "rent" or "lease" empty cartidge shells out to people who don't have access to them, provided they were returned to him undamaged and intact (or else you lose your deposit). Then it would be a matter of learning how to load the things yourself, get them together, and take them apart again without damaging them. This would save him (Martin) the cost of loading, say, 500 cartridges all at once, or even on demand, which would be far too time consuming for a single person vs. the actual profit he'd be making from them...

Anybody have an opinion on that thought?

SR

[Nigel]

To respond to the TimeCode issue. I don't think that the sound stripe would have anything to do with it. When you are shooting 16mm you have a TC DAT or TC Nagra that is pushing the numbers onto the slate. You could shoot with a TC Slate now if you had the right gear.

[Alex]

Loading your own film in super-8 cartridges is DIFFICULT...

A few years back, I hooked Super-8 Sound up with an inventor who designed special equipment that allowed the high speed winding and rewinding of the super-8 negative film after it had been slit down from 35mm.

Super-8 Sound discovered that at first when Super-8 film was being loaded into the Super-8 Cartridges, the films were jamming.

It turned out that a flimsy piece of thin round plastic that comes with the original cartridge from Kodak needed to be reloaded into the cartridge to keep the film from binding against the housing.

Who knew!

Dust is an issue.

And of course, preventing light leaks not only to the film being loaded into the cartridge, but to the remaining huge pancake load that had to go through the arduous task of being split in four (or three) from the 35 mm pancake...of course all done in the dark.

The truth is, the PRE-LOADED cartridge of Super-8 film that allows the filmmaker to focus strictly on the act of filmmaking,

...and also allows for the use of a small format camera with less battery requirements (than a 16mm camera)....and you start to unearth the magic of Super-8mm film...ease of use.

I worked one cold long night on a student film project recently where the 16mm film may have been loading incorrectly into the Bolex.

I meticulously matched the ASA of Polaroid BW film I was shooting for test purposes to the 16mm film ASA to confirm we had enough light for each set-up.

I even rated the 16mm film to overexpose by 1/2 stop, and I added another 1/2 stop because the shutter speed on the bolex is faster than normal...

The first two out of 4 rolls came out black! The thanks I got for supplying battery powered lights, no crew to help me move two lights, stands, sandbags, and the numerous batteries used to power the lights for the night shoot, for free.......was unstated suspicion.

I'm pretty sure the first two 16mm rolls were either loaded backwards, or there was a shutter slider that may have been left over the film plane, in essence, creating the effect of having the shutter closed.

No matter, my polaroids that I took were proof that an image should have come out...but because of the inexperience of the student camera operator, and it being dark, and it being 16mm, and the film having to be loaded in 100 foot daylight spools, in my opinion led to the first two rolls being completely black.

I worked alone all night long doing the lighting for this shoot...for what....to have the others wonder if it was me who messed up.

When I mentioned that the final two rolls came out when there was even less light....I got an "Oh".

The point to all of this is...pre-loaded Super-8 cartridges are a treasure for the filmmaker, the chance of failure or success now rests more on the effort you put in front of the camera, and not whether or not the camera loader did their job correctly.

As for Nigel's issue about Time-code. If you record the super-8 sound stripe with the time-code from the digital slate, and that time-code is slaved to the audio recorder...or audio player if it is a pre-recorded sound track for playback purposes.....

The super-8 could EASILY and QUICKLY be synced up to the audio during the transfer to video session (or Rank Cintel Room)....

...AUTOMATICALLY, without having to hunt for the exclusive slate hitting the board frame for each and every take.

If sound stripe film were still available....You could so syncing techniques in Super-8 that are not done in 16mm and 35mm!

Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex (edited January 07, 2001).]

[pcg]

Ekoe--

By the way, I tried SimplyCine's site again. There IS a way in: a tiny box at the very bottom of the homepage. So I got in & queried them on sound film availability (their site indicates they hoped to have it for sale by 9/00). I'll post any replies...

--Pat